Shin’ichi Kuramoto

childhood, experience abroad, life onboard, international cooperation, science funding, program organization, science diplomacy, Pacific Ocean, JOIDES Resolution, Chikyu

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This transcript is based on a video-recorded interview deposited at MarE3, JAMSTEC (Yokosuka, Japan).

The transcripts of the research project Oral Histories of Scientific Ocean Drilling are polished representations of oral conversations, and are intended solely for the purpose of preserving and documenting personal accounts and memories. They are not a literary product, and are not intended to exhibit literary qualities.

The primary goal of this transcript is to capture the spoken words and memories of the interviewee as accurately as possible. Minor editing and polishing works have been performed to enhance clarity and readability while maintaining the authenticity of spoken discourse, including non-standard grammar, inconsistencies, repetitions, and pauses. The interviewee has been allowed to review and edit the transcript, and they have approved the publication of this version before posting it.

The reader must be aware that memories of an event can vary between individuals and may evolve over time due to various factors, such as subsequent experiences, interactions with others, and personal emotions.

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Please cite the interview as:

Interview of Shin’ichi Kuramoto by Beatriz Martinez-Rius on 2024 August 26, JAMSTEC Headquarters, Yokosuka, Japan. [link]

Beatriz Martinez-Rius (BMR): Today is August 26, 2024. I’m Beatriz Martinez-Rius, postdoctoral researcher at JAMSTEC, and I’m at the JAMSTEC Headquarters in Yokosuka (Japan) with Shin’ichi Kuramoto. Thank you very much. Can you please introduce yourself? Saying your name, position, and institution.

Shin’ichi Kuramoto (SK): My name is Shin’ichi Kuramoto, right now my position in JAMSTEC is Associate Executive Director. From April 1^st of this year (2024) I retired from the Executive Director position to the Associate type of position, to support in everything.

BMR: What’s the difference between the Executive and the Associate Executive Director position?

SK: Difference is – no responsibility (laughs). Of course, the Executive Director is responsible for all the management of JAMSTEC, so the Associate position has nothing about it (laughs).

BMR: For how many years were you Executive Director?

SK: For 3 years.

BMR: And then you rotate?

SK: Yes.

BMR: So Executives only stay for three or four years, and then they change.

SK: The Executive Director position depends on the (JAMSTEC) President. The President retired when I was in my first year as Executive Director. The next president came when I was starting my second year. In total, I did three years. At that time, I was 62 years old. That’s the time for retirement at JAMSTEC. However, I continued to work at JAMSTEC in a different position – my current position.

BMR: And do you have to retire, afterwards? Or can you continue in another kind of associate position?

SK: Nobody knows, but 65 years old is the last term. But if I get some position at JAMSTEC or in other place, I will continue to work, I’m physically available (laughs).

BMR: I think you will be (both laugh). So let’s start with the questions. Where did you grow up, and how was your childhood like? What do you remember?

SK: I  was born in 1962, and  I was born in a kind of big family. At the beginning, there were my parents, two sisters elder than me, my grandparents, and maybe one or two aunts. In total, we were close to ten people living under one roof (laughs). My grandfather was working as a police, and half of the time he did some work in agriculture. My father was working in bank, and maybe… on Sudays, worked in agriculture, as a farmer. My mother had no job, she was just housekeeping and helped in agriculture issues.

BMR: When you say agriculture, which area?

SK: I still live in the same area, since I was born. Change the house, but anyway it’s same place. I continue to live in downtown Tokyo, the eastern edge of Tokyo.

BMR: So there were some fields around to work on, when you were…

SK: Small but… It’s getting smaller (laughs). But still, I’m keeping some amount of field. Now, it’s almost nothing for agriculture. It’s a very small space that I’m still keeping. (I grow) some beans, corn, (laughs) some vegetables, cucumbers… But small, anyhow.

BMR: So having a grandfather who was a policeman and a father who was a banker, didn’t you have any kind of influence from them?

SK: My grandfather was a very strict person. When I was three years old, he passed away. He was very strong and very dignified… you know. But my father is… He changed his job when I was four or five years old. He left the bank and started a restaurant. He became a restaurant owner and worked there with my mother (laughs).

BMR: Japanese food?

SK: It was a mixture, Japanese and Chinese food (laughs). He served some kind of lunch-type. Many people stopped, taxi drivers and residents in the nearby areas.

BMR: So you decided to follow a totally different pathway from them.

SK: Yeah. My father, basically, said nothing to me about what to choose for my high school and university studies. I think that his background was to be free to choose my education, to get a higher (degree of) education than him, I think. So I just said (to him), “I’ve decided to go this way, this way”, and he just said okay and supported me financially.

BMR: He supported you to go to Earth and ocean sciences.

SK: Yeah. I grew up at my house up to the high school age. Then, I went to the university outside of Tokyo. At that time, both my parents said “yes, okay, no problem. We support it” (laughs). Finally, I finished the university after getting the bachelor, and went to another university to study the Master’s course. And then, I went back to Tokyo as a student of the doctoral course. At that time, I had already spent six years (studying). And I will going to do three or four more years. Then my father said, “you are going longer than the elementary school!” (laughs) The Japanese system is six years for elementary school. “You have already spent six years at university, so, more?” (both laugh)

BMR: He wanted you to start working?

SK: He was just a little bit surprised about it, that I still continued going to university. He could not make an image of what job my son will get.

BMR: I see. So what sparked your interest in Earth sciences? Why you got interested in that?

SK: Well, before I was maybe sixteen or seventeen years old, I liked airplanes. Sometimes I visited Haneda Airport with my father, to see and take pictures of the airplanes. Big airplanes, the Boeing 747 or something like that. So (I had) a very strong impact, image, and I (thought) I had to become an international airline pilot. At that time, many boys of my age had that kind of dream, to be an airline pilot. When I was going to high school, I tried to become an airline pilot. My friend had also the same dream. Then, at high school, we had to choose one science. We must do, Physics and Chemistry in my high school. Biology and Geology, or Geosciences, we had to choose among those two. I chose Geosciences rather than Biology because the Geosciences included the atmosphere’s science, so it could be a good knowledge to have, when I become an airline pilot. My friend also agreed about it, so we chose the Geosciences. But at the same time, I faced a big difficulty – English. The English lessons were very hard for me. Then, my score was… (laughs) So I just imagined that an airline pilot has to speak English, and communicate with others… “Oh, that’s almost impossible” (laughs).  Based on my score, and also I didn’t like the lessons in English. So, “maybe I have to change my dream.” Also, I was interested in technology, building, construction, etcetera.

I finally changed because of the class in Geosciences I had during my high school age. At that time, Geosciences was kind of free. There was not so much of learning. My teachers were also (kind of free), “You can do whatever you think” (laughs). There was a small library in the Geosciences lecture room. I found this book, of course written in Japanese. The title is: Why the Magnetic Compass Shows North? It was a kind of field book about geomagnetic. It’s a very introductive and easy to read. And, “Oh, I understand the key points!”, or something like that. It was very interesting. And I was available to examine by myself, like the curie point of temperature. Then, in that kind of class, reading all the time and doing some examinations, I was getting more and more interested about the Geosciences. Another book talked about plate tectonics, earthquake mechanisms, and such. So the plate tectonics theory was not common in the high school textbooks. The old fashion style (books) did not show the plate tectonics (theory). Only a few textbooks taught plate tectonics, which of course showed earthquake mechanisms, and volcanic eruptions… That was understood through the plate tectonics theory. “Wow, that’s a great story!” I imagined; I had to learn more about such kind of things. Then, in the third year of high school, I changed my mind and I asked to the teacher, “I want to go to kind of Geosciences’ studies”. Then they tried to take me to the entrance examination for university. First they tried (me to go to) kind of Education Department, which was training future teachers, but… A little bit… Not much well (I didn’t like it). Finally, I choose the Geosciences Department at Toyama University. It’s in the Japan Sea side. Then, I went there.

BMR: So you graduated in Geosciences at Toyama University. Why Toyama?

SK: Why I choose Toyama… Of course, for my scores it was available, for that level. And also, it is a heavy snow area, and I was very much interested in seeing the snow-covered area and such kind of things never seeing in Tokyo (laughs).

BMR: (laughs) That’s a good reason, right?

SK: At the Faculty of Sciences there was a new Division of Geosciences established, at Toyama University. I could be a fourth (generation) student; they had just started their fourth year. It was a very young department.

BMR: Do you mean there were four students?

SK: No, no, it was established four years before I joined the University. Very young department. So professors were very clever, or maybe they had very fresh ideas, based on plate tectonics. They knew it. Also Geology – I still remember two geologists, professors, and one geophysicist who was doing the lectures on earthquake science.

BMR: What’s his name?

Geology is Ei Horikoshi, and the other one is Akira Takeuchi. Geophysics and earthquake science, his name was Ichiro Kawasaki. Professor Kawasaki’s lecture was very hard to me. Everything was mathematics (laughs). So starting with equations, writing on the blackboard, and filled out everything; went to the back side (of the lecture room), then filled the blackboard again; then, back again to the front, then start writing…

BMR: So it was not that clear as your book.

SK: It was very interesting, but very difficult (laughs).

BMR: So, after graduating at Toyama on Earth Sciences, did you move back?

SK: In Toyama University, the third year, I had to choose a kind of seminar to do the final paper, that had to be published in the fourth year. At that time, Kawasaki-sensei of the earthquake sciences – I wanted to try his lectures, and going to the seminar of Kawasaki-sensei. But unfortunately, I… did some mistake (laughs). For preparing the seminar with him, and for several students, I had to make some copies, paper copies, to be read by everybody at the seminar. Unfortunately, I was mistaken in the number of the copies, and I missed myself. I had nothing. “Oh my god!” (laughs) I prepared it for everybody, so “let’s start”, “oh, my God… I missed my one” (laughs). I couldn’t join the seminar. Then, I asked to (the seminar of) Geosciences, Geology… Only two people had joined. A very small number (laughs). And, “hey, Shin’ichi, come to join the Geoscience, we are only two persons!” (laughs). There were many seats available.

BMR: So it was a mistake in the number of copies what led you to this career pathway.

SK: Yeah, yeah. Then I joined the Geosciences (seminar), mostly Geology. But unfortunately, the Professor – he was a very good person, clever, and understood the plate tectonics theory, and… His main field was ore geology. Kuroko type of geology. But his field was shrinking, because there was no chance to go to the mines… No chance to do field survey, at that time. But the Professor suggested me to do that kind of things, and I hated it.

BMR: Why?  Didn’t you like to go to the field?

SK: Yeah, and the Assistant Professor was there, at that time, so I asked him to do another type (of research), a kind of tectonics, or structural geology or something that was much interesting for me. Then, I did it (laughs). So, the communication with the Professor was getting worst (laughs). Then, when I finally finished the graduate paper, I’d written everything, I decided to go to another university for the Master course. Then, I changed to Kanazawa University.

BMR: Was it structural geology?

SK: Geology.

BMR: Why Kanazawa University?

SK: So in Geology there was Professor Kenji Konishi. His main field was kind of coral geology and shallow to deep environments, but he was educated at Tokyo University. He got his PhD in Tokyo University. Then, after that, as a postdoc in coral reef geology, he was at the Colorado School of Mines. Then… He became very interested in tectonics. I was also, very interested. Then, I joined, “I want to do this”. He suggested me the kind of research in the southern Ryukyus Arc area. So, okay, I went there, and then…

BMR: Was that offshore?

SK: No, on land. But of course there are islands, and I was working around almost every island. Of course, between islands and island, there is a gap. I was interested in how to connect the geology between islands. So with just one technology, seismic reflection surveys…

BMR: So at this point, did you started studying data from the sea?

SK: At Kanazawa University, Kenji Konishi introduced me to a Professor, at that time, Associate Professor at the University of Tokyo. They had some data from the offshore, and also the technology to perform data analysis, and processing, and interpretation; those things were available at Tokyo University, Ocean Research Institute (ORI). My home is in Tokyo, so when I was back home, it was easy to commute to the ORI. I think there was summertime or something like that. I was back in Tokyo, visited the ORI, and tried to understand how to do data processing, and interpretation, etcetera. When I started, I still belonged to Kanazawa University. I finished at Kanazawa University after two years, my paper was also published, and then I would like to go to Tokyo University, ORI.

BMR: And did you get the position?

SK: Yes, as a doctoral course student. At that time, (Asahiko) Taira-san had come from Kochi University just one or two years before. Maybe one year, before I joined.

BMR: So, at this point Taira-san was at the ORI, and the Department of Marine Geology was starting to get more people from the Ocean Drilling community, maybe?

SK: Yes… So, there was an office of ODP at the ORI. Former Professor (Noriyuki) Nasu had established it, and with Professor (Kazuo) Kobayashi – those two big persons organized it. Then, Nasu-sensei retired and that position was occupied by Taira-san. Taira-san continued the ODP office. So then, at that time, there were Taira-san and Kobayashi-sensei, both pushing for the ODP.

BMR: How was your first experience offshore, at sea?

SK: I was in Toyama University, during the last year. It was a kind of temporary work, in which I was introduced by the Assistant Professor. That was the Hakurei Maru – the name of the ship – in a cruise of the GSJ, Geological Survey of Japan. Three or four students  from other parts of Japan joined as a temporary work, to support the GSJ survey. I think it was more than a month long (laughs). Yes, around the southern part of Japan, off the Kyushu area.

BMR: Did you like at that time the idea of doing Marine Geosciences?

SK: Yes, yes, it was very interesting. Then… also, during the Toyama University period, this Assistant Professor introduced me to a new technology which was introduced by the University of Hawaii. The name is SeaMARC II. That’s a kind of the side-scan sonar, which can produce a very wide image of the seafloor. (I was) very surprised, very interesting. And I wanted to learn more about it. Then, I tried to write a letter to the professor of the University of Hawaii, Donald Hassong. Then… Maybe he understood my letter. There was no email at that time, so I just physically write, made a typewriter letter, but it was the first time for me (laughs).

BMR: Maybe someone corrected your letter, your English, before sending it?

SK: I don’t remember, but I may had showed it to the Assistant Professor. In that letter I wrote that I was very interested about the SeaMARC II system, and also, “I want to join your team” or something like that. Then, the answer came back to me. “Oh, yes, that’s great! You need to take the TOEIC or TOEFL, English level test”. I had to take it. And that was the first step. “After that, you have to join the graduate school”, or something like that, he suggested. Oh, I didn’t know about such kind of system! The TOEIC or TOEFL… Oh, that’s a very hard work. I remember, then, that I had stopped my dream of becoming an airplane pilot (laughs) because of my low scores in English… Then, that could be very difficult. The time passed very quickly, I had to take the examination for the master course, to leave Kanazawa University. Then, unfortunately I couldn’t go to the University of Hawaii, at that time (laughs).

BMR: But later on, I think that you went.

SK: Yeah. Very surprisingly, I joined to the University of Hawaii as a postdoc. At that time, Professor Don Hassong had moved, and Greg Moore had come to the University of Hawaii. But I met Greg in Tulsa University before, for almost three months, I stayed at Tulsa University.

BMR: In which university?

SK: Tulsa, in the middle of the US. That’s a private university. Because when I was at ORI, at my first year, there was some research cruise in the Nankai Trough and the Izu-Bonin Arc, by the research vessel Fred Moore, ran by Texas University. That was taking a lot of data from the Nankai Trough and the Izu-Bonnin. Then, the data processing was taken by Greg Moore, by then at Tulsa University. I wanted to join to him, to learn about the processing, etcetera. Then, Taira-san supported me to go to Tulsa University during a short time, and I stayed there. Then… A few years later, Greg-san moved to the University of Hawaii. I had gotten my PhD at Tokyo University, but there was no job, at that time. No postdoc position could be available for me. Then, “please, come”, he (Greg Moore) suggested me, and I joined him at the University of Hawaii. So, Hawaii is kind of point of connection… (laughs)

BMR: Yes, it’s a point of connection for many people, from Japan and the US.

SK: That’s right.

BMR: Was there something that surprised you about the USA? I mean, that was your first time living outside Japan, right?

SK: Sure, yeah.  Tulsa was the first time I visited continental USA. I stayed in a kind of dormitory, in Tulsa University. And… Nothing (laughs), I had no knowledge about the system of the dormitory, and the culture… I knew nothing. So, I went there and I had to prepare some bedsheet, and blankets… Everything. But there was a leader of the dormitory who kindly taught me.

BMR: Was he American?

SK: American, yes. There were very few Japanese. Outside the dormitory, I met them several times, but they were very few. But, you know, the dormitory it’s just for sleeping (laughs). I woke up in the morning, I went to the data processing center, there’s a big machine there; then spent more than half a day there, even in that very cold room… Then, back to the dormitory, sleep, then continue the data processing.

BMR: So you really focused on learning data processing.

SK: And also the culture of the US. And that time, there were two students of Greg. Both of them, very kindly showed me about it. There was also a visiting student, when I arrived to Tulsa University. That visiting student soon moved back to her home. On her last day, they held some party, a farewell party, and they also invited me. And I went there. So, maybe 99% of the time, I could not understand what they were talking about (laughs), so nosy (laughs).

BMR: American style party (laughs).

SK: Oh yes, more than forty years ago (laughs). I just stayed on a chair, maybe drinking something… listening… Nothing, I could not understand (both laugh). And one time, one student, a lady – she was kindly telling me how to process the data, and how to manipulate the computer, etcetera. Then, I took memos or something like that, and I understood what I had to do. I was getting better and better but still, communication, or conversation, was very difficult to me, in the first month… And I don’t remember correctly, but she said, she wanted to go somewhere, the washing room, toilet. I couldn’t understand her correctly. Then I followed her (Both laugh). Then she stopped, “No, no, no, you stay here” (both laugh). In total, I stayed three moths, two or three months. I was getting better, my skills, maybe.

BMR: Finally you mastered English.

SK: It was a very good experience for me, to learn how to process data, the culture, and also the… It was a very good experience, to stay in the dormitory (laughs).

BMR: Now that we are talking about Greg Moore, the University of Tulsa and Hawaii, Taira-san… All these were related to scientific ocean drilling. Even the cruise you did with the RV Fred Moore was related to a later ODP expedition, right? So how did you got involved in scientific ocean drilling?

SK: I learned about the ODP in Toyama University. There was a notice board, and they had some information on ODP, a newsletter or something like that. Then I saw it, ODP, and I recognized that it was an international project. I still remember, the newsletter had kind of a letter heading, with an illustration of the JOIDES Resolution or something like that. “Oh, nice looking! So good!” Compared to the other newsletters in Japan, that was, wow… That was an image, the first impression (laughs). Something like, “kakkoi!” [cool!] (laughs). Then… When I went to the ORI and passed the examination… My friend Ju’Ichiro Ashi-san, just us two students had passed for Taira-san’s seminars. Then, I joined. After the day of examination, I wen to the ORI. We stayed waiting for Taira-san coming back from the main campus of Tokyo University, because Taira-san had some meeting about our exam results, if we pass or not. Then he came back, “you, guys, have passed! Congratulations!”, “thank you (laughs), Professor”. Then, he said, “You guys have four years, to stay in ORI”. “Why four years?”, the usual doctoral course was three years. You finished the paper in three years, that was the ordinary timing. But at that time… We had just passed, the theme was not yet decided for our PhD thesis. But he said four years (laughs).

BMR: Taira-san told you to stay four years, not three.

SK: Yes ,yes.

BMR: So, a longer PhD.

SK: A longer PhD, I don’t know why. I don’t know if he had an idea about us participating in an ODP expedition or not, but… Anyhow, I joined the ODP cruise, so they decided in the first year (of PhD) that my theme would be focused on the Japan Sea tectonics, or something like that. ODP Legs 127 and 128 focused on the Japan Sea. So, before that, the JOIDES Resolution was coming to the Izu-Bonin and Marina arc areas, and then went to the Japan Sea aera. It was already planned.

BMR: Was it Leg 127, that you were onboard?

SK: Yes, Leg 127, Japan Sea.

BMR: Who were the co-chief?

SK: Kensaku Tamaki and Ken Pisciotto. Ken Pisciotto was an industry guy. Kensaku Tamaki was an ORI professor, but he already passed away… I joined the Leg 127 as a physical properties’ specialist. I was the first student from Japan who joined the ODP.

BMR: Were you the youngest from Japan?

SK: Yes. Before me, already professors, associate professors, and people in such kind of positions had been able to join the cruises. But it had never happened before, that a (Japanese) student…

BMR: What do you remember about the experience onboard the JOIDES Resolution?

SK: There were just three people as physical properties’ specialists, including me. One was a big name, Marcus G. Langseth from Columbia University, Lamont-Doherty Geological Observatory. He was the biggest, also a senior (scientist). But we had to do summary paper about each site, etcetera. And the first, he (Marcus) did it; the second paper, another person did it. For the third, “Hey, Shin’ichi, your turn. You have to wrap up everything about this site and write”. Then, of course, “Oh, my English again!” (laughs). Then, writing… I made it in a computer, not with typewriter (laughs), and I showed the draft to Marc, Marcus Langseth. And he kindly checked everything, wrote in red pen or something like that like that. Then, maybe… Understandable, at least (laughs). Finally, “Hey, Shin’ichi, that’s much better than the other draft. It sounds like Shakespeare!” (laughs), he said.

BMR: So, you had improved! (laughs)

SK: “Like a Shakespeare”, I’ve never heard it before. That’s fluently writing everything, Shakespeare it’s kind of a textbook (laughs). I’ve never read Shakespeare in English, but that was very impressive.

BMR: How was life onboard? By that time you had already some experience in offshore cruises.

SK:But the ODP is quite different. After the core is on deck, everybody starts sampling and also doing analysis, measurements… Every 12 hours the members change, working 24 hours, seven days a week. But it was very, you know, exciting, every day. And sometimes, during the kind of refreshment time, we communicated with people of almost our same age or more senior person. It is very flat, you know?

BMR: I guess that’s maybe a very different relation from the one at the Japanese system.

SK: Yes.

BMR: You could communicate with more senior as well as early career at the same time.

SK: Yes. In the Japanese research vessel, basically students come with a professor or associate professor, in a kind of education, something like that. It’s not their own research. There is… a kind of hierarchy existing. But ODP is… I joined the physical properties specialist, and the three people were equally, (it was) a flat position. Of course, each one had the same responsibility, like writing the papers, of course, and things like that. That was very… I’ve never heard about such kind of experience before.

BMR: How did you continue after this expedition? Did you continue with your PhD?

SK: Yes, yes. Based on the data from Leg 127, I made… My main PhD target was there. And, I used it, as well as other (seismic) reflection data from the Japan Sea. Then, I made my PhD papers. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a chance to be an onboard participant of the ODP again (laughs).

BMR: Of IODP, you mean?

SK: ODP and IODP. My onboard experience was only that one expedition.

BMR: How about Chikyu?

SK: I’ve been onboard Chikyu, but I did not participate as an expedition scientist. Just as manager and that kind… For the Chikyu project, I only stayed in office. And take the responsibility.

BMR: Hard job.

SK:Yes, sometimes it’s hard, but sometimes there’s nothing interesting (laughs), or interesting but, you know, quite different job from scientists.

BMR: After your PhD, you moved to the Geological Survey of Japan (GSJ). What motivated you to go to the Geological Survey, instead of staying at the university?

SK: After the PhD, there was no job. There was position available as a postdoc at University of Hawaii, they kindly invited me, and I decided to go to Hawaii. Then, at the same time, the director of the GSJ, Marine Geology Section, contacted me to join the GSJ. He also kindly invited me to that position. The GSJ is a government institution; basically to become a member of the GSJ, you have to take an examination first, pass two or three tests, then an interview…That’s the normal course. But another course, is just being invited, when the person has a very interesting, special skills, techniques, knowledge… Then, they don’t need to take the examination.

BMR: Why did they consider that you didn’t need examination? Why were you “especial”?

SK: That’s the… The technology, what I learned as a PhD student on reflection seismics. I could do data acquisition, processing the data, interpretation… Everything. And the GSJ wanted that kind of person. Maybe, as I understand, all my skills could be available for the GSJ purposes. The GSJ was famous and also did a lot of national work, very important. And I decided to go there. But, also, I… Asked Taira-san, I think. I had two choices: to go to Hawaii to be a postdoc, but after the postdoc, another chance may or may not come up for staying longer. And the other choice was to go to the GSJ. “Oh, which one is the best?” (laughs). I asked Taira-san, I think, and I also thought about it by myself. “A tenure job is very important. You could choose to go a different way, after getting that tenure job”. “So, if they have issued a very special recommendation for you to come, then you have to choose the tenure position”. But the tenure position started from April 1^st; before there was still seven months. “Then, you go to Hawaii”.  That was very short, seven months, “very short, but you can learn more about the seismic issues and… then, after Hawaii, the GSJ”. That’s what I decided.

BMR: What kind of things did you do at the GSJ?

SK: The first time I came to GSJ, I had to sign on the documents that the GSJ showed. That was kind of engagement, like working for national Japan (laughs) and also the… Kind of… The document asked me to keep the… Confidentiality policy, then I signed on it. I was really surprised (laughs). The GSJ position was as a researcher, then they… I roughly thought that it was a continuation of university, and I would do the same thing, processing the data, and interpretation, and… Based on such kind of data, do some kind of mapping, and that kind of things. Then, oh! Singing on that, confidentiality, national engagement for the Government… (laughs) I had a very heavy impression. But, of course, I singed that and I started.

BMR: So you were not doing science. You were mapping and processing data, but not really for answering any scientific questions, I guess.

SK: But what GSJ does serves to understand research. As a duty, the GSJ has to publish the geological map on land and offshore. Our department did the offshore mapping. Then, seismic, sampling, etcetera. They continued with other areas. That’s their kind of duty, and what I had to do. At the same time, the results were open for writing papers, etcetera. There was no limitation about it. And… Then, research money, was much better than at university. Those were good conditions.

BMR: Also you had more stability, with a tenure position.

SK: Yes, a tenure position… And I don’t need to ask for Kakenhi [note: grants in aid of the for scientific research], like university people. We had a lot (of money), at that time. And some extra money, we requested to the Government. And it was also available, I could take some big money for research, my own research; I also did such kind of things.

BMR: During the period you were in the GSJ, you went in a rotator position to the Science and Technology Agency (STA). I’d like to ask you about that position. What kind of things you had to learn, to be in that position? What kind of things did you do?

SK: In GSJ era, some of the younger level people had a kind of duty to spend one year as rotators at the STA. In my case, I stayed in the STA for one year. At that time, I had my own job at the STA not related to the ODP or IODP issues. It was a different one. But the boss of the Department knew what I was doing, what I did it, and the knowledge I had about the ODP. He knew about it. Then, my boss, “Hey, Shin’ichi-san, you know about ODP”. “Yes, I know about it”. And also (my experience in) onboard participation, and some panel meeting, etcetera. And also, my PhD supervisor was Taira-san. “Oh, perfect!” (laughs). The boss was attending – not every, but many meetings with the ORI and Monbusho [note: Ministry of Education], those kind of meetings, national meetings; and he took me there, and I joined to understand about what kind of future collaboration, and classification, and such kind of discussions happening in Japan. Also, the STA started a negotiation with the NSF. I went with my boss at STA to Washington, D.C. and I attended the meeting with them. Then I understood… Some of the circumstances and history. Then, I suggested my boss why are they thinking like this, based on this history, or something like that; and the culture of the ODP is like this, etcetera. I suggested him.

BMR: At what point of the ODP-IODP were these meetings? How was the situation, is this before Japan proposed a drilling vessel? Or is it during the time it was negotiated?

SK: My understanding was that the drillship was a first motivation in Japan. And after the ODP started, soon after that, Nasu-sensei and Kobayashi-sensei from the ORI started talking about, we need more… A bigger drilling ship, to go to the deep oceans, deep penetration… Such kind of discussion happened.

BMR: And from the perspective of bureaucrats, STA and NSF, why do you think they were supportive of the Japanese drilling vessel? Or maybe they were not so supporting, I don’t know.

SK: I… Maybe half of my guess. At first, the economy in Japan was not so good. And also, the ship building companies were getting worst. So, kind of the industry people pushed the Government, “we need more job”. And also the scientists, “we need a bigger ship to explore the deep ocean, deep into the Earth”. Such kind of collaborations were getting bigger and bigger. And the Government moved. So, I think that it was important that both voices, the industry and the science, were very much harmonized at that time in the Government, and they moved to build the drilling vessel. That kind of movement was getting bigger and bigger, and much better and better. Spending more money from the Government to the industry. Such kind of movement, was there.

BMR: During this time at STA, did you learn something that was important for your later career?

SK: Yeah. When we started the construction of Chikyu, it took about twenty years, from the discussion started – maybe by Nasu-sensei or Kobayashi-sensei. They discussed and more the scientists joined, the voices were getting bigger; then everything happened after twenty years. Then, the construction started. Such kind of energy, l think is very important. Never give up (laughs), yes.

BMR: Projects like this, that include a lot of money and policy-making, decisions, really take a long time…

SK: Yes, a really long time. When we were talking about “Japan will or may construct a bigger drilling vessel”, then several US scientists asked me, “You, really?” (laughs). At that time, it was called the Godzilla Maru. It was a big ship. But… Every time they went to a panel meeting, they asked about it. Then, finally, the Government decided to take the construction. But that takes a long time. Continued the same pressure, by scientists and industry, too… But the scientists’ (pressure) was very important, yeah.

BMR: I have the feeling that you have been involved with Chikyu during all its life, right? Since it was planned up to now. So you have really seen all the process of materializing, becoming a real ship, doing operations.

SK: Yes. Well, when I was at the STA, one day, JAMSTEC people came to the office. They said, “We want to change the design of the vessel, because we have to change the size of the riser”. So, the original riser design was “home-made”. It was a titanium, made out of titanium, slimmer in size. Because at that time, oil price was almost at the bottom, 20-30 dollars per barrel. The oil industry-related in companies had never produced the new riser systems. But, the situation changed just before the construction of Chikyu. The 21-inch riser pipe was produced at that time. That’s the biggest one, it can connect up to 2,500 meter long. Wow, that was commercially available, that was much… Cheaper, than the home-made titanium riser pipe (laughs), And also, the certification, etcetera. They, JAMSTEC, decided to change to a 21-inch riser pipe system, to install in Chikyu. But at the same time, the ship’s size had to change. A much bigger size was need to install that riser pipe system. Then, these persons came to the STA and they said, “Why not changing the design of ship?” (laughs)

BMR: What was the answer, the reaction of STA? Did they agree?

SK: Yes, of course they finally agreed about it, but… The total cost may increase, I think. But, thinking about a longer period, it was much more efficiently available.

BMR: So, if I understood it, the initial design was smaller, with a riser system made at JAMSTEC.

SK: Uhm.

BMR: But that was more expensive to build. And also, I understand that the titanium riser was not made for industrial operations.

SK: Yes. That’s right.

BMR: So if you purchase a standard riser, you could use Chikyu for much more things than just science.

SK: Yes, it increases the flexibility and… Once we got the 21-inch riser system, then the… Certification, of course, came with it – then, it was available for commercial works.  If we choose the titanium pipe, then it would never, the certification would never happen. Then we could only do scientific drilling, by our own risk .

BMR: We’ve been talking about STA and the change of design in Chikyu. I was thinking, how did you continue, just after that time?

SK: After the STA, I was back to the GSJ. And, in the year 2002, Taira-san had moved from ORI to JAMSTEC in April that year. Then, the OD21, the Ocean Drilling in the 21^st Century Project, had already started. He was taking the lead of that project. At the same time, they planned to establish an Operations Group, which was CDEX. The Center for Deep Earth Exploration. We established it from October 1, 2002. Then, Taira-san called me. “You…” how to say… “must”? Or… not may (laughs), “come to join to CDEX, which has just established, to be responsible for the operations of Chikyu”. He kindly invited me. And same time, I was at the GSJ. So the GSJ was also changing everything, its structure, so it was a little bit of… headache, to continue as a researcher at the GSJ. And also, at that time, I couldn’t make my plan. So, “Okay, let’s change”, focused on that. CDEX was a really  for operating the Chikyu, and also the science support was very important. In 2002 the construction had just started, and there was a lot of work for designing the labs, to decide the policies, the documentation, etcetera. A lot of the work was there (to do), and I decided to join JAMSTEC, CDEX.

BMR: From the time you were rotator at STA and you learned about Chikyu, and the time you joined JAMSTEC, did you keep any relation to the scientific drillship that was planned?

SK: No, no.

BMR: So, you were not aware of what happened in that period, and then you joined JAMSTEC and you learned…

SK: Yes, but back in the GSJ, I still was in contact (with ODP). I was a panel member of ODP, Site Survey Panel, SSP, and the… Before I joined JAMSTEC, when the interim period of ODP-IODP started, I was co-chair with… Each panel had a co-chair, with an American and a Japanese scientist taking that positions. My experience was Site Survey. At the Site Survey Panel I was also the co-chair, and I was also selected to participate as co-chair in the interim period. At that time, I was in the GSJ.

BMR: What were the challenges? The things that you remember more vividly about the interim period?

SK: Interim period, very interesting. So the basic idea was, it’s an equal contribution between the US and Japan. That was kind of a big change. Then, as you know, the ODP and before, the IPOD, the DSDP type of programs, the US had taken the lead. But in the IODP that changed. The co-lead was (shared by) Japan and the US. And… Those changes could not be fully understood by everybody. The number of panel members was equal, US and Japan, equal for the management, and, from a Governmental point of view, the total cost had to be equal (laughs). Also the culture, we had to understand each other. It was very important.

During the interim period, one of the panel (meetings) was held to understand the Japanese culture, or something like that. There was some professor from some University in the US who showed some picture (laughs) to us, “What do you think about it?”, something like that, he asked. And talked with some members about the… To understand each way of thinking.

BMR: What do you mean by culture? What things are you thinking about, when you talk about understanding the American or the Japanese culture?

SK: It’s very difficult (laughs)… Funny thing is that, there was a picture with an apple pie. For the Japanese, “That’s delicious”, “could be delicious”, “oh, that’s apple pie”… But, for the American, “oh, apple pie! It’s mother-made”, “the heart of the mother or family”, or something like that, they understood. With the apple pie. And… Another example, the cherry blossoms. (For the American,) “Those are beautiful flowers!”. But for Japanese, maybe for the kind of senior persons, they had a different impression about sakura, the cherry blossom. They grow up in the moment and also in the moment they fall, and disappear. That is a very samurai spirit… You know.

BMR: Like the ephemeral, something that… Is temporary, right?

SK: Yes, it dies in the moment and there’s nothing left (laughs). Maybe that’s for very senior person… (laughs) But, I know some Japanese think about it, reflect about the cherry blossom like this. That’s a difference in the culture.

BMR: So do you think that these kind of things were important to understand each other, that each group had different views of the same things?

SK: Sure, yes. As a bottom line, to understand each other and… ODP and IODP had the same, you know, bottom line. We had a grassroots policy based on the proposals, also based on discussing and evaluating (proposals) by peer review. But still, there’s, you know, not obvious but some strategical approach that was different.

BMR: Like, what kind of things?

SK: Uhm… One of the (things) we didn’t know about it before, but right now we know, is about COI issues.

BMR: About what, sorry?

SK: Conflict of Interests. It was not common for Japanese, turning the meeting issues. Of course we knew about it, but ‘COI’ is a name that we didn’t have, in the popular [?]. And also the… Meeting rules. The Rules of Robert, of conduct. There was a very clear documentation. Robert’s Rules, to manage the meetings, and all the ODP meetings were based on that rule. There was an order, there was a rule. Everything was written down in the documents. ODP, of course, was all documented – about the policy, procedures, etcetera. Now is getting, you know, normal; but Japanese were not paying much attention to it before. So that culture, all documented, the engagement, signing on that, and that kind of procedures. That was not common for the Japanese, I think.

BMR: I understand what you mean. So… In the interim period, you managed to organize a system where everything was written, and everything was very clear. And this was the strategy behind everything.

SK: Yes, yes.

BMR: In order to have both communities, and ECORD, working efficiently together, everything was well planned. So, let’s go back to the JAMSTEC period.

SK: Sure.

BMR: You entered in CDEX. How was the environment like, in CDEX? What kind of things you and other people were doing? And what were the challenges about the Chikyu project?

SK: When I started in CDEX, the construction had just started but still, some details of the design were still under discussion. And also, there was no documentation about procedures, rules, or something like that. The big issue was for drilling; the Science Support was a little bit minor, at that time. Then, drilling was… “How do we do it?” (laughs) JAMSTEC had no experience, of course, in Japan, to do that. The only knowledge was in JDC (Japan Drilling Company) as industrial oil company, but it was little. They had never had drilling ship-type of platform; they had never experienced it. Then… The knowledge about ship operations, of course there were several big ship companies who knew about it. Then (the question was) who will take the lead. That was the biggest issue, when CDEX was established. So, several people came from oil companies and drilling companies to CDEX. They designed the details, and also made the documentation and handled the HSE (Health, Security and Environment) issues. That culture had never… Never been realized, in JAMSTEC. And (we produced) more documentation, in English. (laughs)

BMR: At that time you already mastered English.

SK: I don’t know if I mastered or not, but I must do it! (laughs). I became the group leader of the Science Support Group, at that time. And there were one or two staff members who didn’t speak Japanese. Then, we did all the meetings in English, and the documentation and all the documents were written in English. That’s quite a different culture than JAMSTEC, or maybe even in Japan. And (we did) the job description. Such kind of culture, we didn’t have (laughs), but we tried to describe each position, about what they have to do, what responsibility they had, etcetera. The responsibility, the format, the policy…

BMR: Was CDEX very different from other departments inside JAMSTEC?

SK: Yes. Quite different. I think that, of course at that time, an Ship Operation Department did exist. But in the design of Chikyu operation scheme, it was international and a different culture, drilling and ODP, IODP… Then, JAMSTEC managers decided to have them separated. So CDEX was only focused on Chikyu.

BMR: So I understand that CDEX was in communication with some Government office, which gave the economic support, and also with international partners, with industries… I was just wondering if you remember any kind of example of how communication worked.

SK: Basically, CDEX was taking care about it. But the complexity was that… CDEX was one part of JAMSTEC. So of course, there existed a hierarchy of decision making within JAMSTEC. CDEX was one of the parts of JAMSTEC. But CDEX had to communicate with the Government directly, or with the NSF directly, or with the scientific community directly. And we did it. So, sometimes there were misunderstandings between CDEX and JAMSTEC Headquarters, or some kind of troubles… (laughs)

BMR: Because it was like, you were jumping (skipping that hierarchy), right?

SK: Yeah, yeah. A particular example is… What expedition will be conducted by Chikyu? The decision was  officially made by the President of JAMSTEC, who was not the Director of CDEX. But the procedure was, the proposal was evaluated by some (IODP) panel, then the panel recommended that the operator is CDEX, then CDEX decided yes or no. But not officially. Finally, CDEX Director had to ask to the President of JAMSTEC. That was kind of the official flow.

BMR: I remember that we have talked previously about the model of CDEX, which was trying to be a mirror of the model of ODP offices in the US.

SK: Uhm.

BMR: At JAMSTE you were trying to create an equivalent structure. But this hierarchy was different from the structure at the US, right?

SK: Uhm, different but some points were very similar. Still, in the US, the NSF’s power was very big. Of course, you know, there are grassroots proposals, a pressure from scientists (that is) much stronger than the Japanese system… But anyways, finally the money, they are giving everything. That’s a very important thing I learned (laughs). At CDEX, of course, we could directly communicate with MEXT; then the person who was taking the lead or responsible of IODP Japan was MEXT, not JAMSTEC. MEXT was responsible for everything about it. But… The person in MEXT who was in charge of IODP was replaced every two years. Changing. And also, they… that’s not… Their main field (of expertise), is not geosciences. Then, we taught them at the same, or educated, and that takes time. Then… Not… (laughs)… saying that behind of them… Not say to control, we could not control, But… We suggested them everything. Yes.

BMR: Now that you talk about MEXT, how the support of MEXT has evolved through time, since they decided to build Chikyu to these later years?

SK: They are changing. At first, when IODP started, we had an MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) between the NSF and MEXT. The signer of MEXT was a minister, at that time. Still that was an MOU, but a very high-level MOU. That means that we, Japanese, are making a big drilling vessel, and we decided to contribute with the ship operations and the science for long time. That was the MOU. And we will co-work with the NSF, with the same contribution from a budgetary point of view, and others. But, ten years later, the MOU disappeared and they changed it to a more kind of Memorandum-type; a lower person (from MEXT) was signing it… And… Physically, nothing had changed but… The level of contribution of MEXT had changed, it was getting lower and lower.

BMR: The budget, you mean?

SK: Yes. That means that the… Budget point of view, was decreasing. Their interests were maybe changing.

SK: Why do you think that the interests were different, in the early 2000s?

SK: I think… One reason is… The construction (itself) was a very important for them. To get a big budget from the Government, that is their… How to say, that was good point, for them. Then, to continue the operations, and… It was very much of a trouble, at first. They delivered (Chikyu) to JAMSTEC in 2005, and in 2006 it had not yet done any scientific ocean drilling. We had just done commercial drilling. One of the reasons was that budget was short, to operate everything, to operate with riser drilling. And then, in two thousand… seven, 2007, they start (scientific operations). But, ah, we had very limited days for the operations. So, still, the budget was short to continue the operations for science. Then, maybe from the Ministry point of view, I guess that it took too long time to get some results (laughs). We proposed to do the Nankai Trough drilling, to understand the mechanisms of large earthquakes, Magnitude 8 or more. That is, still, (laughs) after almost twenty years of operations, still the large earthquake mechanisms are not yet clear. Of course, that is a very difficult point but… From the government’s point of view, they provided big money and big chances but they never (laughs) got back from the scientists. Or the results were not the appropriate.

BMR: There’s not a clear result, a clear answer.

SK: Yes, yes. It’s easy to understand their request, and maybe they are waiting… For example, going to the Moon, take a rock, and then come back…

BMR: You have the rock, right?

SK: If we had the rock, then, 100% completed. That’s easy to understand and very clear. But to understand the earthquake mechanisms, how do we do that? Still, it’s unclear. That is, for their point of view, a lot of money provided but never got much in return. But the education of the next generation, it’s very important to educate the people; that’s very important but it takes a long time, too. We provided the opportunities for them, but… That’s not much… Connected to getting some budget. (laughs)

BMR: Talking about budget support to Chikyu operations and how it changed. How the relation of Chikyu with offshore industry works has evolved, from your perspective?

SK: Relation with the industry… When the operations with Chikyu started, Chikyu was a top-class facility in the world. Then, we did some works offshore Kenya, western Australia, in the Indian Ocean… Those were very much a difficult type of operations, but Chikyu could drill them. Now, the time has passed, and Chikyu’s class is little bit old. Still, the industry has a chance to do some test drilling, like CCS (Carbon Dioxide Capture and Storage) type of drilling or something like that. Or contribute to the green technology. And one of the good points of Chikyu is that it can do coring and also deploy some very special instrumentation in the borehole. We had a lot of experiences, which means that, it can contribute to monitoring under the seafloor. That could be very important for monitoring any CO₂ issues. I think such kind of very special drilling is a chance for Chikyu to contribute, rather than doing normal or industry type-drilling; compared to industry commonly drilling situation.

BMR: Going back to the survey that you mentioned, offshore Kenya and Australia, in 2005-6. How did the scientific community, and even you at CDEX, reacted to the fact that Chikyu was built initially for science but the first expedition was not scientific?

SK: There was a big argument on “why”. We also did some works off Shimokita for the shakedown. Then, somebody mentioned, “that’s a too long shakedown” (laughs), Why it spent more than a year doing that, for a shakedown? “It has to go back, to do science, first”. That kind of arguments, there were a lot.

BMR: And what did you answer to that?

SK: “I’m sorry” (both laugh). No, no… Of course, the shake down was very important, and that was the first time for us to operate a drillship, and a big ship, an international ship; we had newly constructed this vessel and a shakedown takes some time. But… Also, as I said, money was short for operations. We, of course, had calculated to do the Nankai operation, and at that time a lot of money was needed for continuing with the riser drilling. Then, we needed money (laughs). Sometimes we said that it was a lucky (situation) that the oil price changed from 20-30 to 45-50 USD. It increased every year, and the chance to hire Chikyu, there were many requests. So, the operator, at that time – had changed its name to SeaDrill – they recommended to spend several months doing commercial drilling to get money, and also to train the operators. So that was a high-end machine, at that time, and they needed training. And both, to do the training and to make money, they pushed the Chikyu to go and do some commercial works. But it was challenging. I think, that was the responsibility of Taira-san. But anyhow… Such kind of money, to get outside money, is not the proper way for JAMSTEC (laughs), or… JAMSTEC’s is basically Government money, to do the research; but to make money… The size (of the needed money) was very big. It was very surprising. And about whether it was our job or not… (laughs), a big discussion may have happened, at that time.

BMR: So, as I understand, Chikyu is the only facility at JAMSTEC that runs with money that comes from the Ministry and then the industry.

SK: Yes. The other vessels in JAMSTEC have never happened to get such kind of money. That comes from the outside, for being hired by another person. Chikyu was the first time, of such kind of things. We are employed by government money, then why a (public) employee has to work for commercial work? That was the basic question. Chikyu is constructed by Japanese taxes. And also the crew of drillers, they… They are private company persons who came from outside Japan, most of them. Why Japanese tax was being used for their training?

BMR: Uhm…

SK: Many complained about it.

BMR: Did you have to answer to these kind of complains, from your position at JAMSTEC?

SK: No, not from my position. That is a higher (position) (laughs). But… Of course, that’s understandable, but from the cabinet viewpoint… We changed, but we had no experience to operate the riser drilling vessel in Japan. They had to learn. And, of course, it was an international vessel, with international manners, and international rules, we had to take care of everything. Such kind of expertise was not in JAMSTEC, nor in Japan, either. We had to learn first and then, when our understanding matured a little bit, then we could change… The proportion of Japanese crew and other crew. Finally, we are now in half and half, Japanese and people that comes from other countries. That’s the good proportion for international operations. Chikyu is the only JAMSTEC vessel that English is officially spoken onboard (laughs).

BMR: How your perspective in science and management of science has changed, in this time? You started doing science, but you ended up being Executive Director of JAMSTEC…

SK: Yes.. What has never changed is the first motivation to operate Chikyu, that’s the science. Then, if the industry needs some facility, and they are taking care of the big money, then they can do it by themselves. But we never changed the basic scientific questions that he have, that can never by solved by another technique. Only through ocean drilling. Many scientific issues are still remaining. The seismogenic zone, of course, and Mantle drilling, of course. Those issues are still waiting for Chikyu operations, I think, and we have to do them. Yes. And we, of course, have to promote that more people, not only the Government, encourage our operations. Maybe some enhancement is needed, to continue with the operations. That’s the basic bottom-line, that has never changed.

BMR: How would you evaluate the life of Chikyu?

SK: When they delivered it to JAMSTEC in 2005… Since then, it has done Nankai, Shimokita, Muroto and Okinawa (note: IODP expeditions). Those are sites that we have drilled, and have made a great contribution from a science point of view. But those targets are only some points in the world. There are still many unknown issues, and the we have to continue to operate more, not only Chikyu, the other vessels are also of course important. But for the deep penetration, only Chikyu can do it. Then, in the future… This year, we will continue the scientific drilling with J-Track (note: IODP Expedition 405). From a science point of view, it is very important, and also for disaster mitigation. That is a very big issue for the Japanese, and Chikyu would produce a good contribution for that. But from the operation point of view, still it’s challenging. Very difficult, to be… MarE3 (note: JAMSTEC’s operations department) will safely operate it, of course. After that, Chikyu is still unique facility, in JAMSTEC, in Japan, and in the world. We… can use her for all big issues existing in the world. One clear issue is Carbon Neutral issues. Chikyu can contribute with some drilling, monitoring, etcetera. Chikyu must do, be used for those projects. Deep penetration, it has never succeeded (laughs); still, Mantle drilling is very important. And nobody knows about it. Why? Almost more than half century ago, the scientists proposed it, but it has not yet been realized. That’s very problematic. We could do it, but… Then, Chikyu is getting twenty years old, next year. And we will continue to use it for IODP³, but nobody knows about the fate of Chikyu. The same or a more enhanced facility is needed for deep ocean; deep penetration equipment is needed to continue doing cutting-edge science. Then… If we change from Chikyu to Chikyu II, then we can continue to get samples, or to measure inside the Earth… This can only be approached through drilling. That’s the only method, and we have to continue with it.

BMR: That’s my last question. What is the most valuable thing for you, for your life, for your career, in relation to scientific ocean drilling?

What has been a great opportunity, has been the chance to touch about a unique facility and the environment of the international community. That was very important in my trajectory, for me, for life. I spent, in JAMSTEC… More than twenty years, and ten years at the GSJ. So, more than thirty years in the Geosciences. More than a half of my life, I spent in scientific ocean drilling. I have been very lucky, to be born in this age (laughs); to see the ship being born, and to touch myself the operations, to support the cutting-edge science… That was very good, in my life, I think.

BMR: So maybe it was a good decision, not to become an airline pilot.

SK: (both laugh) Yes, yes, that’s a different world that never happened, unfortunately. If I had been fluent in English in my high school age, my life would have changed. I’d be richer (laughs), flying.

BMR: (laughs) But you went down to the sea! Well, thank you very much.

SK: My pleasure.

BMR: Is there something that we haven’t talk about that you want to mention?

SK: Yes. I think that I was very lucky, and it was lucky for my life, as I said, that I touched upon this moment. And, for the younger persons who have an interest about ocean drilling – not only ocean drilling, but for the ocean or geosciences. Who is taking a lead in the science, and in the management, in the international systems, that’s also very important. A lot of the work exists that is not occupied by AI technology (laughs). Communication and conversations are needed, for taking the lead, for looking towards the same horizon and work together. That is very important. That kind of work exists, and I have worked for that. Maybe, in the future, a new way exists. Please, join us, come to work with us. That’s very important.

BMR: Thank you  very much.

SK: My pleasure.