Joshu Mountjoy

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Interview of Joshu Mountjoy by Beatriz Martinez-Rius on 2025 July 8, online. [link]

Beatriz Martinez-Rius (BMR): Today is July 8th of 2025. I am Beatriz Martinez-Rius, historian of science at JAMSTEC, and I am with Joshu Mountjoy, from NIWA, the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research in New Zealand, in a virtual meeting. So, thank you very, very much for joining me.

Joshu Mountjoy (JM): Thank you very much. I just correct that we’re actually now the Earth Sciences New Zealand – it’s the name of our institute. It just changed last week.

BMR: Oh, thank you. Just for the recording, can you say your name, your affiliation and position?

JM: Yeah, Joshua Mountjoy. I’m a marine geoscientist, but also the Sector Lead Energy at Earth Sciences New Zealand, in Wellington.

BMR: What’s your main role? What kind of things do you work on?

JM: I’ve recently taken on a new position where I’m focused on the energy sector. That’s about bringing all of the things that Science New Zealand does, a lot of environmental monitoring, forecasting, environmental impacts, and helping to support the energy sector in New Zealand and the transition to more renewable energy sources through that.

At the same time, I have a role in the Ocean Center as a Strategic Manager for Oceans. That’s around building or using our capability in ocean physics, ecology, ocean atmosphere interactions, biogeochemistry, geology… All of these things, together to do research in the New Zealand region and also, help solve societal problems supporting industry and things like that.

My own personal research area, for many years, has been in marine geoscience.

BMR: What’s your relationship to scientific ocean drilling?

JM: We had a whole series of drilling campaigns in New Zealand around 2017-2018, and that’s when the JOIDES Resolution came here to drill about five different expeditions in the New Zealand’s EEZ and the Ross Sea. In New Zealand, scientists had a huge amount of involvement in that – I got involved pretty early on. The conception of one of those programs was to drill the Hikurangi margin, the subduction margin off east coast of the North Island, and through a number of workshops, contributed to the proposal development and the site survey database. Then, we ended up writing ancillary projects later, an APL, to drill some landslides in the same kind of region, and try and understand the link with gas hydrates.

The APL on the landslides built off some research that I had done during my PhD, so I’d already written a couple of papers on these landslides, and we were really going into test those ideas about them. I then did some site survey voyages on our vessel R/V Tangaroa and I sailed on one of the voyages – that campaign was split into two separate voyages, one of them to do logging while drilling and the APL, as well. So, I was on that one crossing between 2017, 2018. And then the second voyage came along. I didn’t sail on that, but that was to do the deep coring and put the observatories into the subduction zone.

Then, of course, had involvement in a raft of different science projects that came out of it, with PhD students working on aspects of the data. So, papers coming through, one of them has just being published now, you know, almost ten years later.

BMR: I guess that’s how it goes, right? I mean, people in scientific ocean drilling keeps producing from that of one single expedition for many, many years afterwards.

JM: Yeah, totally.

BMR: Let’s start from the beginning and then we go to this involvement in scientific ocean drilling. Can you please tell me about your background, where are you from, where did you grow up? How did you get into Earth sciences?

JML For sure. I’m a kiwi; I was born on New Zealand. My parents are both New Zealanders. I spent most of my childhood in the northern Coromandel, which is a really rural area, living in the bush and the forest; pretty quiet life. Went to primary school there, and then eventually moved to Wellington, capital city of New Zealand, to go to high school. We moved down here, finished high school and then, spent the next eight or so years traveling around New Zealand and overseas, surfing and snowboarding, working here and there, and doing things like that, before I decided it was time to go and get some higher education, and went to university when I was 25.

I really just got quite a strong interest in the landscape and hills. That was really what brought me to geology. You know, I spent a lot of time in the mountains, different places, snowboarding, and a lot of time in the country. I was drawn to geology from a geomorphology point of view, even though maybe I hadn’t totally kind of made that connection in my brain.

I went to Canterbury University in the South Island, and studied geology to start with – Bachelor’s in geology and pretty soon got into the geomorphology side. Then did a Master’s degree in engineering geology. So, quite focused on landslides on land – hadn’t done anything in the marine environment at all. I do remember, at one stage, being in the library and seeing a shelf with journal Marine Geology and thinking that was just an amazing thing, and wondering what on Earth there was to do in the marine geology area. But yeah, we weren’t really talking about the marine environment at all.

When I finished my Master’s, had one child during my Master’s degree, and so I needed to get a job, and went out and worked for a couple of years as a consultant, as an engineering geologist, working on hydropower schemes and subdivisions and things like that, roading – you know, very, very construction-type stuff. But it is kind of weird that the science bit was really the interesting side of things for me. And I really kind of sparked that during my Master’s, looking at these really big landslides on land, like 100 meter thick landslides that were failing on tiny little thin layers of clay. They were actually marine sequences, as well. So I was in Canterbury, near Christchurch, and also in Hawke’s Bay, not too far from where we ended up drilling. There were the slope basins that had been uplifted, they were Miocene age 15 to 20 million years ago. And so, there were marine sequences there, falling and creating the landscape. The project was really around landslides’ influence in the form of the landscape.

That really sparked my interest in the research and understanding how the Earth works, I guess. I met some guys from NIWA at a conference in 2005, and lined up to do a PhD with them, eventually. It took a while, really needed to get a good scholarship and stuff so I could – had quite a lot of life to support by that stage. And then, it worked and moved back to Wellington to be based at NIWA, which is the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, but they have a marine geology group. It’s kind of a historical thing that’s a part of that. So, I moved here in 2006. NIWA had been collecting multibeam data for seafloor acoustic mapping since 2001, and people were using it, but they really where [?] building up this big data set of seafloor mapping data, and needed someone who was just going to focus on analyzing it and bring techniques from on land, and apply them to the submarine environment. When I did my PhD, it was really just to the point where people were starting to do that in a big way. So, it was a good timing, from that point of view.

My PhD was on the influence of tectonics on submarine canyons, so focused around Cook Strait, which is the gap between the North and South Island, and there’s a great big canyon system there. That’s on the sort of southern end of the subduction margin, as well. I worked on those canyons and then, the seismic data there was terrible – just old, really poor quality seismic data. Multibeam was amazing, but seismic data was terrible. So, I really wanted to understand that next dimension of what’s underneath the seafloor. There was a new data set of seismic data that had been collected up off the sort of Gisborne region halfway up the North Island, and another big canyon there. So, I went up to look at that system as well, and started studying that.

It became apparent that there were these great big landslides there, and they were influencing the way the landscape was forming. So, you know, that was a great thing for my interest. And identified these big landslides called the Tuaheni landslides that looks like they were slow moving earthflows. That became part of my focus of the PhD, coming up with the kind of hypothesis of how you could have a slow moving landslide underwater. They’re happened in quite a few places on land, but they’re driven by rainfall. So, obviously, in a submarine environment, you’ve got to have a different process that can allow landslide to not just fall catastrophically, but move slowly down. Wrapped up the PhD, had a second child during the PhD, and then just got a contract, permanent position at NIWA, in 2009. Stayed on as a staff member and yeah, worked as investigator, lead researcher… I’m writing funding proposals and papers, going to conferences, and building a big collaboration network in New Zealand and overseas. That was really a great period of time, lots of amazing relationships and travel around the world. That’s really cool.

We’ve got a ship at NIWA called Tangaroa, 70 meter ocean-going research vessel. And that’s one of the real strengths of the Marine Geology Group – at least when I started, there was 2 or 3 voyages a year that were going out and collecting new data. So, from a very early stage, I think 2010 was the first voyage that I had a leadership role on. I was able to start making decisions about what we were doing on those voyages, and where we were going and what data we were collecting, and I really enjoyed that side of it. You know, going out in the ocean and every time you discover new things that you didn’t know you were going to find. That was really great.

So, I pretty much went on a voyage a year for a long, long time, and led some pretty substantial voyages. We brought over a 3D seismic system from Germany, from GEOMAR, and mapped to Tuaheni landslides in 3D. That was in 2014. We also put in a proposal to bring the MeBo-200 seafloor drilling rig, which is deployed off Sonne, to drill on the back of that 3D seismic on the Tuaheni landslides, as well. That happened in 2016. So, I spent quite a lot of time up off the East Coast collecting different bits and pieces of data.

Around that time, 2016, the Kaikoura earthquake happened, a magnitude 7.8 earthquake. I’d worked on Kaikoura Canyon, which is one of the canyons that comes closest to shore, within a kilometer offshore, and it’s very steep, deep canyon, amazing wildlife, lots of whales there, and seabirds, and plankton… And there’s potential for a landslide tsunami. So, someone had proposed that you could have a big landslide there that could cause a 13-meter high wave. It was, you know, a bit of kind of wariness in the community around this, because it had been proposed as this thing that could happen. I wanted to go and check the data, basically, because it wasn’t based on the type of seafloor mapping that we could do then, at that stage. So, in 2013, went in a small vessel and mapped the head of the canyon and showed that it wasn’t really realistic, that you’d have a huge landslide like that’d cause a tsunami.

Then, in 2016, the earthquake happened and the fault actually broke right into the heat of the canyon. That triggered a very large sediment flow, but not a tsunami. And so, that was kind of vindicated that it wasn’t going to happen that way, but it really just – very unusual: we had completely mapped the canyon, then the earthquake happened, and we could go back and map it again, and see all of the changes. The floor of the canyon eroded by 60m and flushed all the sediment out and, at that point, we knew that it had gone 850km along the seabed. Now, we know it probably went about 1500 kilometers along the seabed. So, it’s a massive sediment flow. I raised it because that was kind of one of the most exciting things in my scientific career, being able to document that incredible event. And, you know, people have got some amazing data on canyons, but nothing still quite like that opportunity where you have one of these big earthquakes that it’s right in the canyon.

So, that was happening just before the JOIDES Resolution was due to come to New Zealand, but in the meantime, I guess starting in about 2012 or so, we’d been starting to have workshops around, bringing the drillship JR to New Zealand to drill holes in the Hikurangi margin. Laura Wallace was hugely instrumental in leading this, conveying the workshop in Gisborne and brought a whole lot of the big international names in ocean drilling to Gisborne, to talk about what we might do. And so, that was the inception of it, really.

BMR: Was that the first time that you got into the community of scientific ocean drilling? I mean, the first time that you really got into using ocean drilling for your research?

JM: Yeah, absolutely. Until that time, we’d really just collected sediment cores that would never be longer than six meters long. So, I was not really aware of what the ocean drilling community was doing, or what it was capable of. I guess I was aware that vessels had come to New Zealand before to drill holes. We obviously have petroleum wells as well; there’d been some drilling campaigns in New Zealand, but they were all before my time, or I just wasn’t aware of them. I mean, there was one happening in 2013 and South Canterbury, but I had no idea that it was going on.

BMR: By the time you went on board, that was 2017-18, right? You had already like ten years of research experience going offshore, being in other ships, in other programs… So how the experience on the JR, how scientific ocean drilling, compares to your previous experiences?

JM: By that time, I had been on our vessel many times. I’d been on the German vessel Sonne, I’d been on an Italian vessel – two Italian vessels… So, lots of different, other people’s ships and our ships… But the set up on the JR was just actually completely different, because most of those vessels have some kind of lab space, and you bring on what you need for that specific voyage. But the JR just had this entire workflow of core processing. Obviously, all focused on that core. And, yeah, being able to have the core come out, and not just maybe open it up and have a look at it, which is usually what – we wouldn’t get to do much more than that onboard the ship; but being able to photo scan, and make all of measurements, log it, sample it… Make your technical measurements while you’re onboard… Yeah, it was absolutely amazing. That was just a huge eye opener, really. And especially with the team that they have onboard, the technical experts and the staff scientists on there, they were amazing. And the espresso machine upstairs – one Italian vessel had an espresso machine, but none of the others had anything like that (laughs).

BMR: I’ve never been on the JR but I was on Chikyu, and it’s really incredible the size of everything, from the operations to the labs.

JM: Yeah, Chikyu is another level again, I think.

BMR: So, tell me please again about that expedition. What was the New Zealand’s contribution to the expedition in the Hikurangi margin? Was it something that the New Zealand community put forward? Or was an international proposal and just when it came out, scientists in New Zealand got more involved?

JM: It very much the former. It was all driven from the New Zealand community. All the science that had been happening in New Zealand had been collaborative with different international participants but, you know, it was driven by New Zealand-based scientists, understanding the slow slip subduction zone processes, understanding gas hydrates and landslides. Then, we saw an opportunity to get the drillship here, and basically reached out to the international community to bring them on board and make it happen. So, it was very much a New Zealand-lead initiative.

BMR: After the expedition, has it created some sort of push to put more proposals in the system, to continue with scientific ocean drilling?

JM: It’s great question… For a while, yes, because there was stage two Hikurangi proposal. We intend to drill the input sequence into the subduction zone, there was a proposal to drill out on the Chatham Rise, there was another proposal to drill in the Ross Sea… And four others considered. But, of course, the JR came to the end of its life and so, these proposals are still knocking around, but we are at the moment, you know, kind of reimagining what ocean drilling looks like really in the framework of IODP cubed.

So, some of those proposals that were put in were very much based around JOIDES Resolution, and the others, not so much. But yeah, there was definitely a continue drive to have more proposals. And, IODP through NSF, the great thing about it was that you had this kind of forward looking, plan of what the JR was doing, where it was going in the world’s oceans and so, you could kind of look forward 5 to 10 years and say, if we get enough proposals in the system approved, then we can put that proposal pressure on, to bring the ship back down into the South Pacific. That was definitely happening. There was, as I said, at least three proposals, all within the New Zealand EEZ, and another one in the Ross Sea. So, yeah, the hope was that they would happen but, of course, the JR has been retired.

BMR: I’d like to ask you something in relation to your current position in ANZIC. What motivated you to continue involved in scientific ocean drilling after that expedition?

JM: I mean, it was an amazing opportunity to sample down into that area, and we’d never get there like that again. So, I wanted to keep doing that. And actually, the proposal that I got involved in was a groundwater proposal, offshore groundwater — at the moment they are drilling the New England continental shelf, so it was something similar. That was with Brandon Dougan and Aaron Micallef, as well. That didn’t get through the system and it’s still sitting there. Could be brought up again, I guess partly because it didn’t go forward for a number of reasons. Things died off a little bit for me, on the ocean drilling side of things. But then, with GeoDiscovery, which is the New Zealand part of ANZIC – we, together with Australia, are under ANZIC – we had Stuart Henry. He has been the kind of champion of GeoDiscovery all through that time, did a huge amount of work, didn’t even sail on the drilling vessel themselves, but just made a lot of things happen.

He finished working at GNS, so we needed someone to take over ANZIC – GeoDiscovery, rather – because GNS and NIWA they were merging together, and it made sense to have co-chairs running it. And, just given my experience with IODP and I know vessels well, and the drilling system, and a lot of people in the community as well, it was a good opportunity to come back in and help shape things for the next stage of IODP cubed as it is now, that we’re part of. So, I guess I had a bit of a pause, really, on ocean drilling. And now it’s really good to be back engaging with the community.

BMR: what’s exactly your position now? What’s it about?

JM: We are co-chairs, myself and Phaedra Upton, of GeoDiscovery New Zealand. We have the committee, we have contributions from different member institutes, universities and research institutes, and we get a contribution from the New Zealand government as well that allows us to be part of ANZIC, the Australian consortium, and use that money to join one of the ocean drilling programs.

At the moment it’s IODP3. We’ve just signed up to IODP cubed. That’s a collaboration between Japan and Europe. And so, yeah, I was coming at that time everything was gonna set up and track for that. But now that it’s happened, it’s time to figure out how we can get involved in what’s happening overseas, but also think about how can we do science down in our area because, without a mobile vessel like the JR, Chikyu is very expensive to transit anywhere here. We are looking at vessels and opportunities – so, Mission Specific Platforms. That’s a very specific type of drilling project that can use one of those. You can’t just be anywhere. So yeah, it’s sort of trying to figure out what that looks like. We’re having workshops around proposal development. It’s good.

BMR: What would be the goal of New Zealand as part of a IODP cubed for the next ten years? In the sense of, where would you like to see the community going?

JM: Well, I guess that we are just working on what that strategic vision should look like. So, I don’t have any kind of properly designed bullet points for you. But we want the New Zealand scientific community to be involved in the International Ocean Drilling Programme because it brings together this just huge network of scientists, which is absolutely amazing. Our research in New Zealand is generally focused in New Zealand. And so, while people can go and get their experience overseas, by and large the government is only interested in funding research that is New Zealand-focused. So, for us, definitely on the five year, ten year timeline, we want to be tackling scientific problems in New Zealand EEZ using scientific drilling.

BMR: Of course you’ve been in other international programs, surveys, communities… How does IODP compare to other kinds of collaborations you’ve had during your career?

JM: It’s a lot more organized. I mean, I think IODP was the biggest geoscience collaboration in the world. It’s absolutely enormous. So many member countries… And things are changing now, as it morphs into IODP cubed and we see what China’s going to bring to the table, and NSF is making decisions around whether or not they’re going to continue to fund it. So, I guess it’s just way bigger. The other kind of similar things I’ve been involved in, we had a really nice collaboration that was based around a conference on submarine landslides, submarine mass movements, a symposium that happened every two years and had a conference, and wrote a conference proceedings book… But, you know, there was about 100 people from mostly around the world in different places. And that was a lovely collaboration. But it just doesn’t compare to the scale of what IODP brings, really.

BMR: Talking about international collaboration and science in New Zealand, is there any particular challenge for New Zealand to establish collaborations internationally?

JM: Oh, I mean, our distance is a huge challenge, especially now, I think, that the kind of awareness of the amount of carbon you’re using to fly to Europe and around the world is a is a huge barrier. And both ways as well, not just for us getting out but for people coming here. People are kind of reluctant to travel that way unless there’s a really good reason for it. And I think that’s changed quite a lot over the years. Didn’t use to think so much about flying to Europe for a few days of conference, but that really has changed. And the video-conferencing ability now is very second nature to everyone, and we’re using it all the time so, we can develop relationships through that. But it’s not nearly the same as in person relationship. So, that’s really different. But by the same token, we really need to build those networks, make effort to make it happen, because we’re so isolated, as well. So, it goes both ways.

New Zealand has a real benefit that it’s geologically such an interesting place, and a nice place to visit. So, people want to come here for other reasons as well, you know, because it’s a good place to test scientific hypotheses and a nice place to go.

BMR: Yeah, I’m sure. I’d really like to go someday for work – but also for visiting. Now that you brought up the geological context, there’s something else I wanted to ask you. I’ve been talking to people studying different subduction zone systems like Costa Rica, Japan… What is similar or different of the New Zealand subduction zone, the Hikurangi margin? How can it contribute to the global understanding of these processes?

JM: I guess Hikurangi, the Japan subduction zone, Chilean subduction zone, the Makran, Sumatra… All of these subduction zones have similarities and differences. Some of them are relatively starved of sediment. Hikurangi has a big, thick sedimentary sequence going into it. And so, in that way it’s quite similar to the Sumatran system. It has a lot of seamounts coming in, which impact the geomorphology, and also the slip behavior of it. In that way, the Japanese subduction zone has the same kind of thing. I mean, they’re all kind of just different parts of the story. I think the more they get studied, the more we understand that similar kind of things are happening, like the slow slip, which is well identified in New Zealand, well monitored, also happens in Cascadia and in Japan, you know, there were links to the 2011 Tohoku Oki earthquake. And so, trying to understand that relationship between slow slip and megathrust earthquakes is kind of like a holy grail of subduction zone science. Hikurangi is a great place to study that, but it works best in the context of understanding those other subduction zones and the differences between them, as well.

BMR: And in terms of geohazards, in Japan, population is very, very aware of the risk of a massive earthquake and tsunami. How is this awareness in New Zealand? And how likely is that a massive earthquake or tsunami can happen?

 JM: First of all, the awareness thing, people are really aware that these things can happen. It’s a very reasonably high seismicity; most people have experienced an earthquake of some description. We also have tropical cyclones and other geohazards coming through, floods… And no real damaging tsunamis yet – in kind of recent historical times, anyway. I don’t think people have a great understanding of what will actually happen, though, when a big event happens. I mean, people obviously lived through the Christchurch earthquakes and Krakatau, and those were a unique kind of set of circumstances that… Christchurch tragically, quite a lot of people died. Kaikoura was very fortunate. Only one person died. None of that really compares to what’s going to happen in a subduction zone earthquake that will affect such a massive area, and if we get a big tsunami, which could be the same or similar to the Tohoku Japanese tsunami. It’s the same kind of scenario. A lot of work goes into resilience hazard and risk preparedness but, I think, people are kind of not really aware of what the reality of that is going to be like.

BMR: I was asking about population awareness, but it also extends to government awareness, right? I mean, is there investment on this kind of studies, of prevention, mitigation, alert…?

JM: Yeah, absolutely. There’s been scientific investment in the characterization of the seismic sources. And so, they are very much underpinning earthquake science. But nowadays, most of the investment is in the preparedness, the risky side of things, and how we can make sure to mitigate or minimize the impact. A lot of work goes into that. We have from central government funding research, funding preparedness programs… But there’s also all of these regional government agencies that have their own civil defense units. And so, they’re very much tasked with preparing the local population.

So, yeah, I mean, massive awareness of it. There’s an Alpine fault, it’s like the strikes up version of the Hikurangi fault, which runs through the South Island. And there’s a big program called AF8, which is all about a scenario planning for a magnitude 8 earthquake rupture.

There was your other question about how likely it is. The likelihood of a subduction zone earthquake is very poorly known, but the likelihood of an Alpine fault event is like a very high likelihood in the next 50 years. And so, that is really likely to happen. It’s likely to be really big and damage a lot of infrastructure and critical lifelines. So, people are really quite focused on getting prepared for that. But the same thing is also happening for Hikurangi subduction earthquake.

BMR: Is there any way in which scientific ocean drilling can help with this sort of research or programs, or is it mostly through other kind of research?

JM: Absolutely. I mean, the understanding of slow slip processes is hugely important for anticipating when an earthquake and tsunami might happen. We still have the monitoring equipment, and borehole monitoring gear installed in the Hikurangi margin. And so, that gets serviced and that are uploaded every year or so. That’s contributing to it. One of the opportunities with IODP cubed is that maybe we can use ships like the Marion Dufresne, which have long coring capability. So, rather than a drillship, you’re collecting a 20 or 30 meter core. We can use that to understand the probability of earthquakes by using paleoseismic records – how many times this happened in the past can help us predict when it might happen in the future. There’s a bunch of different avenues that scientific drilling could help.

BMR: I have one last question. I’d like to ask you for one valuable or important thing that you got from your involvement in scientific ocean drilling.

JM: As I said, we used the MeBo seafloor drilling rig to drill the Tuaheni landslides, and then we came back and drilled with JOIDES Resolution. And the cores look completely different. So, I think it’s… (laughs) Things are never going to be like you expect them to be. And then you’ve got to make sense of it. And without being able to sample down to, you know, a 100m below the seafloor, you’d never going to have an idea of what it actually looks like until you recover a core from that depth.

BMR: So, maybe, the quality of the material or the data that you get, that’s kind of unique.

JM: It’s totally unique. It’s your opportunity to go to like a geological outcrop where you can go and put your hand on it, and measure it. You never get that in the marine environment. And the only way to get it is to collect a drill core. So yeah, it’s totally unique.

BMR: Great. Is there something that you want to add or to explain that I have not asked you?

JM: No, I think that’s really covered everything. I think just the strength of IODP is the international community, and that’s really a huge thing. And so, the New Zealand being able to access into that global community is really special. I think that, regardless of JOIDES Resolution or the other drillships and how that all works, that community’s still there with a lot of goodwill to keep scientific ocean drilling going on, so that will continue into the future.

BMR: We all hope it will continue into the future. A long future.

JM: I think it will. I don’t think it will stop because people, there’s a lot of goodwill.

BMR: Well, thank very, very much.

JM: No worries! Thank you.